Mingo Palacios:

Welcome to the Purpose Driven Church podcast where we sit down with leaders in and around the church to discuss current trends and challenges and how the five purposes of the local church matter today, more than ever.

Mingo Palacios:

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Purpose Driven Podcast. My name is Mingo and like all episodes, there are so many great things that happen before you hit the record button. And so we’ve been trained to be really diligent while in this rest series, this self care series, while at Hume Lake, to keep all those thoughts contained for this moment. In studio now we have Erick. Pastor Erick is at EV Free-

Erick Thoennes:

La Mirada.

Mingo Palacios:

La Mirada, but not currently there right now. You’re in an on a four month sabbatical. Erick Thoennes. Also in studio, if you saw or you listened to the other episodes, we have Chuck and Jay. Erick, thanks for being in studio with us and thanks for teeing up one of the like statements that I’m dying to hear you unpack, which was sometimes, well you say it. I mean, said it and then now I’m so intrigued. I’m looking at your most interesting man in the world beard.

New Speaker:

[laughing]

Mingo Palacios:

I’m wondering, what is inside your-

Jay Johnson:

This is one of the most interesting men in the world. There’s no doubt about it. Yeah.

Erick Thoennes:

I seldom go on Sabbatical but when I do, it’s always at Hume Lake.

Mingo Palacios:

It’s always at Hume Lake.

Jay Johnson:

Erick has become a mountain man. He’s gone from the Orange County life to the mountain life.

Erick Thoennes:

That’s right.

Mingo Palacios:

I love it. And you know, just only knowing you in proximty to here in the last 48 hours, you own the mountain expression. So there’s something happening in your heart. Moving out of my city, I’m from Orange County and then just being up here, I love you radiate with joy. You’re walking and I just go, there’s more behind you than just what’s coming off of the platform. And I have to believe that it has to be your personal time with Jesus. And we’re talking about self care. We’re talking about the burnout or burn up factor that happens in so many leaders. In my generation, in the thirties, leaders, if you make it to your forties, they say the average span for a pastor is less than 10 years. That’s like, you clock in and your clock out is less than 10 years later. I just have to believe that there are key insights from guys who have been leading for decades that guys in their thirties and guys in their forties have to know. So Erick, if you wouldn’t mind, if you would grace us, if you bless us with a little bit of your insight. As you’ve seen ministry go, I know a core part of your core audience, college, community, college kids, they start, I beg people start smart and then the other side of the spectrum is to finish well. What rhythms do you see between those two points that we should be aware of as the listening audience?

Erick Thoennes:

Well, I think it’s important to think about even that word sabbatical. It means rest. It means something that doesn’t mean lack of activity, but a restfulness a peacefulness of soul. And I think it’s important to distinguish between being someone who’s restful and peaceful, no matter what the activity level is in your life. And I think every Jesus life, and He certainly had time away, but He had an awful lot of time with the crowds pressing in and around him and demands coming from every direction. I think the goal is indeed to take time apart, but so that you can be a person at rest when there is a lot of activity. I think an idea that I’m living for the weekend or I’m living for my sabbatical or I’m living for that time apart can actually be counterproductive to the kind of people we want to be. Which means that people who are restful and at peace mainly because we’re at peace with God, whether we feel that way or not because of Jesus. Then that should lead to a life that is peaceful, that is playful, that is childlike, that is stopping to smell the roses. Even in the midst of a lot of activity. So, I think it can be deadly if we wait to rest until we get the time to do it.

Mingo Palacios:

Until we feel it.

Erick Thoennes:

Well, not only until we feel it. No, I think there should be a sense of settledness to our souls even in the midst of great activity. I think the more mature we become and the more responsibilities we have, the more people will look to us to solve problems and to be there in times of crisis or difficulty. Just like Jesus. You know that scene where Jesus really wants to get away and the crowds beat Him to the other side of the lake and He gets there and in that moment you’d think He’d say, “Hey guys, I need some time.” But it says His heart had compassion for them.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s good.

Erick Thoennes:

And He moved toward them. And He didn’t say, “I’m off duty, sorry.” But there was a settledness of soul to Him that enabled Him to be who God wanted Him to be even in the midst of lots of activity. And obviously I’m on Sabbatical. Obviously, I think it’s time to take regular times of rest where we unplug, disengage, don’t take on responsibility, say no to a lot of things, but I think that should then equip us for being involved in people’s lives where we get weary and weariness is part of the deal for us. I’m actually concerned that we, have you ever heard the expression, Americans?

Chuck Bomar:

Expression. He said expression.

Mingo Palacios:

Expression. Yes. Note that. That’s carrying on from the last step episode.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Erick Thoennes:

Have you ever heard the expressions that Americans work at their play, worship their work and play at their worship?

Mingo Palacios:

I felt like I just got rocked. Say that one more time.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Mingo Palacios:

Say it again for the listening audience.

Erick Thoennes:

Americans in particular. Americans work at their play, worship their work and play at their worship. I think there’s a lot of truth to that. We are so intent on getting our play in and recreation and doing these things and it’s amazing to me some of the most exhausted, burned out people spend lots of time playing video games. They spend lots of time in fantasy football. They spend lots of time watching mindless television or surfing the Internet, getting nothing done. What we need to realize is there are some things that look like recreation on the surface that actually don’t bring any rest of our souls.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s good.

Erick Thoennes:

And so even being wise about what we consider to be something that actually recharges-

Mingo Palacios:

Restful. Yeah.

Erick Thoennes:

That can be going for a run and clearing my mind and praying or doing something that looks like work but actually is restful to me internally. So just be wise about what we actually consider to be something that recharges our soul or doesn’t. And don’t worship the wrong things, don’t get invested in things that don’t, like this right now, is good for my soul. It’s restful. This doesn’t feel the least bit taxing to me to sit here with you guys and talk about important things. I will leave here more charged than when I got here because just being with you guys would feed my soul. And so I think just asking God for wisdom about what actually brings a settledness of soul to us and what is just really idolatry. Now, pastors talk about burnout all the time, but honestly ministry is actually something you can be pretty lazy in and appear very busy.

Mingo Palacios:

Oh, this is a shot across the bow. I’m pretty sure that’s what that was.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Chuck Bomar:

That’s a good conversation at some point I’m sure.

Erick Thoennes:

And so you may be burned out, but I don’t know if it’s a lot of the times because you’re really so sold out for Kingdom work.

Mingo Palacios:

As much as you’re just occupying yourself, but budding things up against one another that you actually are just mismanaging your world altogether.

Erick Thoennes:

Right. So you can be busy and it can be idolatry and you can be busy and it can be really pleasing to God and actually something that doesn’t suck life out of your soul. So I mean, some people have tremendously full lives, but they don’t get burned out because for them they’re investing their lives in things that matter and depending on the Spirit to give them life that they need. And so they don’t get burned out. You say, “I’m so busy, I’m burned out.” Well, is that because when you get home, instead of sitting with your wife and talking and investing in things that matter you’re just staying up til one on the Internet doing nonsense?

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah. You’re burning through Hulu series and stuff like that. Because one of the people you spend the most time with is that college aged individual or that individual and higher education, what are some of the ways that you check them? Right? That would be a check for me that you go, “Hey, consider this. If you feel like you’re too busy or you don’t have enough time in your day or enough days in your week to do what maybe you feel like God’s called you to” Do you have a checklist of things like, “Hey, pay attention to these things. Watch out for these things. These are times sucks. These won’t pay dividends in the long run.” Anything that you consistently find yourself giving away to students?

Erick Thoennes:

Howard Hendricks is someone your listeners need to know. They may not, but Howard Hendricks was the mentor of the generation just ahead of me mostly. He was a professor of Dallas Seminary for years. I heard him interviewed one time and he would say he had average intelligence. It wasn’t like he was tremendously gifted, but he invested his time wisely in discipleship and becoming the kind of man God wanted him to be and one time a student asked, they call them Prof, they said, “Prof, how do you do all the things you do?” Because he would read all these books and accomplished all these things. And he sort of Chuckled and he said, “Oh, I just don’t do most of the things you do.”

Mingo Palacios:

Perfect.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Chuck Bomar:

That’s like somebody that got in my car the other day. This is totally unspiritual. He said, “How do you keep your car so clean?” And I just said, “I don’t let it get dirty.”

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Erick Thoennes:

I just don’t do things you do.

Chuck Bomar:

I just don’t let it get dirty.

Erick Thoennes:

And honestly, when I hear the things that students are doing and they’re so burned out, I just wonder how in the world do you have time for that? And I think that wisdom of investing our time in the right ways. But I think it’s important to start with the basic things. One of the expressions my students actually make fun of me for using so much that they actually made a bumper sticker of this expression that I use so much, for my car. I never put it on my car, it’s in my office, but it’s embrace your finitude that we need to stop resisting the fact that we’re finite. That’s a radical, wonderful important distinction between us and God. He’s infinite. We’re finite. Comes with the deal of being created. It’s not a bad thing. And Jesus, human nature and body, He experienced finitude for us and He’s limited. He has limitations. He got tired. He got hungry. He was in pain. He died. His lungs emptied of oxygen. And so to embrace my finitude, not resist it, but move into it, realizing that I’m limited and I can’t go 14 hours without sleep, without the fruit of the Spirit starting to take a vacation. I just, I need sleep every day. I need food. I’m weak, I’m frail. And so I think paying attention to those results of simply my finitude is really important. And I’ll say to my students, I bet most of you would be twice as productive if you simply slept wisely ate and exercised wisely and got off social media most of the time.

Erick Thoennes:

[laughing]

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah.

Erick Thoennes:

It would provide time you didn’t even realize you had. It would provide a perspective, but we don’t take care of those simple basic things. Oh, and then what I always include is and then spend time with the Lord. So you spend time with the Lord. You eat right, you sleep right, you exercise and you get off the Internet about 80 percent of the time you’re on it and you watch how different your life would be. Those simple basic things could make a radical change.

Mingo Palacios:

Not to make this like pivot towards like how good or bad social media is, but it’s a constant. I only knew a few years of my college career without it. It’s been a constant for us now. For the high school pastor or the youth interns in our world, in our ministry, there is no life without it. And then, you go to the Gen X, you had a dividing line where life was before digital and then life post digital. And then the boomer generation is like, “Gosh, I have no idea. I have Facebook.” And then my mom who’s like, “Mijo, bring home some groceries” through the channels.

Mingo Palacios:

[laughing]

Jay Johnson:

Your mom is on social media a lot.

Mingo Palacios:

Shout out to my mom. From your vantage point, what do you think the future next five, 10 and 20 years are going to look like? I think we’d be naive to say, “This is like something we’ve never seen before!” Knowing scripture says nothing’s new, so there has got to have been distractions and vices and things that have captured all of humanity’s attention for a season and been a diversion that, “This is gonna ruin everybody!” My question is, how is it managed in your own personal spaces? What do you recommend for your staff? If this is a life suck, I’m pointing to my phone in this moment, how are we shepherding people through their digital devices? It’s funny because we were talking on a podcast that’s going to be piped through digital device. So, what’s, what’s your perspective on that particular zone?

Jay Johnson:

Yeah. I think probably for me, having a balance of the things that energize you and the things that drain you. That’s a concept that I started to kind of work through over the last couple of years. And for some people that drain of social media, like for me personally, it brings anxiety. Email creates anxiety and so all the different things electronically that are out there, if I’m interacting with them too much or if they’re building up too much, then I’m out of balance. So, having that balance of the things that energize and the things that drain because there are always things in life that you don’t want to do and there’s parts of ministry that are hard and that is the grind. There’s parts of the grind like Erick was saying, that are very energizing to me. The creative side of producing the theme content and the pieces of that here at Hume are so energizing to me that I have to do them and it’s a deal with my wife that I love to be able to do this because it makes the rest of the time better.

Mingo Palacios:

I certainly believe that. I experience that where she knows there’s things that I can lay into for 10 hours that I’d come back a better husband because of. So like surf. If I get time in the water, the ocean, I come back a better human being than if I go weeks and weeks and weeks where I let everything pile up and that has nothing to do with family. It has everything to do with all the things I say yes to in my every day calendar.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah.

Mingo Palacios:

So I appreciate that rhythm. You spoke to anxiety concerning your digital device. I know for so many pastors coming into season of ministry where they’ve moved from a volunteer, let’s say they got a part time job or now this is their first year in comparison is like damning. I don’t know another way to say it. It will rob you of who I think God has called you to be because we’ve given so much of our attention to the devices that point to the left and to the right of us, the people who are doing stuff. I mean I’m certainly guilty of scrubbing through my feeds and going like, “Man, I wish I had a gathering like that” Or, “I wish I got invited to that thing and I’m experiencing FOMO.” You guys familiar with FOMO? You guys? The fear of missing out, right? I’m getting a sense of loss and all of that takes a toll on my psyche and it takes a toll on my heart and I can’t imagine that not being even more escalated in volunteer kids’ lives. When you think of like kids who volunteer in high school ministry in college ministry where this is constantly telling them what they’re not a part of and what they’re not invited to and what they’re not getting a chance to partake in. Erick thoughts?

Erick Thoennes:

Yeah. I was really helped by a book I read last year called Becoming A Tech-Wise Family by Andy Crouch. His 16 year old daughter wrote the introduction and the way she wrote showed a depth in a 16 year old than part was the result of the decisions that had made as a family to pursue depth over what’s most convenient. And she had a line in her introduction where she says, “We’re not opposed to tech in our family. We love it. We’ve just realized that the best app in the world could never compare to one real bumblebee.” And really taking in the world like that and one of the things he says in the first chapter is to be a tech-wise family in our culture requires being okay with being different and being someone who doesn’t become absorbed in the constant feedback. There’s a dopamine hit you get every time.

Mingo Palacios:

Yes.

Erick Thoennes:

They create these apps and these games and these social media things to manipulate us physiologically, psychologically, emotionally where our identities are now being formed by the amount of likes we get. It’s really troubling to me and I think Christians need to be those people who say, “I’m not going to get sucked into this.” And you’re exactly right Mingo, comparison kills us. So we just got to kill comparison. We can’t get into that. And social media is often designed to get us comparing ourselves, even if it’s not overt. It’s subtle all the time.

Mingo Palacios:

What did you say? It’s the subplot that happens around us, but unbeknownst to us, it’s happening. It’s being written. The story is being told.

Erick Thoennes:

Yeah. Yeah, and so I don’t think we should play. Eugene Peterson in a great book called The Contemplative Pastor, I don’t know if you’ve read it, but it’s really helpful. His first chapter is called The Unbusy Pastor and it starts this way, he says, “Anytime I receive something addressed to the busy pastor, I throw it out on opened, not because that phrase doesn’t describe me accurately at times, but because I refuse to listen to anyone who encourages the worst in me. To us, busy pastors should sound like embezzling businessman or adulterous wife.” And he goes on to talk about pastors needing to be the ones who don’t get sucked into all of that. He talks about Moby Dick, where when the whale shows up, the ship is just this frenetic chaos and the harpooner is the one who isn’t caught up in it. He says he has his feet firmly fixed, his eyes fixed on the whale and the Harpoon ready, and he says, “Pastors need to be the harpooners. We can’t be where everybody else is running around frantic, wanting to be so relevant and so cool and so up on the latest things and so conversant in everything that we’re actually not deep people.” We’re not the kind of people who can offer something in the midst of the chaos because we’re not caught up in it.

Jay Johnson:

Well, that doesn’t lead to longevity as well. If we’re just in the here and the now and we’re responding to those things constantly. When things are bad, you’re going to give up. You’re going to quit. The longevity of ministry that we want in pastors and people getting to rest and be restored and renewed is so, so important to the rhythms of life and getting to a life of ministry rather than just a season.

Mingo Palacios:

Or a moment of ministry.

Jay Johnson:

Or a moment of ministry.

Mingo Palacios:

Yes. So good!

Jay Johnson:

I feel like I’m more impactful now at 44 years of age than I was when I was 24.

Mingo Palacios:

But not for lack of opportunity though, but just understanding that there is a season that the Lord allows you to experience and be exposed to that you don’t have to pour your whole soul in one moment, but to really trust that the Lord’s mapping your course.

Jay Johnson:

Right.

Chuck Bomar:

You asked the question a few minutes ago about, where do we see it in five years from now? And I think that we are already feeling what will be articulated very well in five years from now. And that’s just weariness. I think it actually is weary. You’re drawn to it because you mentioned it, the dopamine. I was actually watching this documentary on this company that develops apps and the name of the company is dopamine.

Erick Thoennes:

Oh my goodness.

Chuck Bomar:

That’s crazy. Right? But, so there’s a fixed. But the problem with that is it’s not sustainable.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s good.

Chuck Bomar:

And so I think there’s going to be a weariness in five years from now that’s articulated, that people are now feeling. So, I have a practice in my own life for it and we want to help our kids monitor their phones and those kinds of things. Even with my staff, we have some simple things like one is that in a staff meeting, all phones off, no connection, no computers open, only notepads and a bible.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s great.

Erick Thoennes:

In your meetings?

Chuck Bomar:

Yeah.

Mingo Palacios:

But I take notes on my phone.

Chuck Bomar:

Yeah, no, no, you don’t. Not at my meetings.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Chuck Bomar:

And then personally we talk, I’ll have conversations with them about personal reflection and self-awareness. Self-reflection versus self-portrayal. So, who are you really is the more important conversation.

Mingo Palacios:

Than who you are presenting or portraying yourself to be.

Chuck Bomar:

Yeah, because you’re not posting on there like, “I’m so angry because my wife this or my husband that.” Nobody’s posting that stuff. It’s all the strong man of our human nature. And so you mentioned the FOMO or missing out or comparison and all that stuff. It’s only one side of humanity that we’re posting.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah they say you post the best and you kind of just delete the rest.

Chuck Bomar:

And that’s right. And that’s what I mean by self-portrayal versus self-reflection and to process through that with our, especially younger staff. You’re 44, so you’re older than me. I’m only 43, so I feel good about that.

Mingo Palacios:

You’re the emerging generation. He’s the seasoned generation.

Chuck Bomar:

But as I get older, I just long to detach. I longed to disconnect completely where nobody has connection to me. That might be a personal problem, I don’t know. But I just long to just be by myself to know that God’s with me to sit in my chair every morning to say, “Thank you God for being present.”

Jay Johnson:

Amen to all of that.

Chuck Bomar:

Yeah. Just simple, simple, simple.

Erick Thoennes:

And what’s crazy, so if you ask my students, “What do you want most in life?” They will say, “Meaningful relationships. I want to be known. I want to know people, I want to be connected, I want to community.” And then they live lives that don’t add up to that at all. They maybe have a social community. So one example, when I started teaching 25 years ago, I would walk in the classroom, five minutes before class. Half the students would be there maybe already. And there would be a buzz of conversation going on. When we’d be done talking about something very meaningful. The atonement, the trinity or these things I teach on class would end and that conversation would pick up in light of what we’ve just done. I walk in classrooms now, half the students are there, it’s silent. They’re all on their phones. Not saying, “Hey, what’d you do last night?” Or, “Hey, did you do the reading? What’d you think of the reading?” Now class is over, they’re immediately back on their phones when they used to say, “Wow, we just talked about what Jesus did for us on the cross. What do you think? Hey, let’s go have lunch to talk about it.” They’re immediately talking to their mom about whether their packaged came instead of actually investing their lives in what they want most that would lead to those relationships.

Mingo Palacios:

Letting it soak.

Erick Thoennes:

Right. They’re extending this social thing so far out, it’s not meaningful in any way.

Mingo Palacios:

It’s hard because there is a sense of meaningfulness. We wouldn’t be having this conversation for the purpose of our podcast if I didn’t believe that it was going to help somebody far and away zero in on Jesus and who He’s called them to be. But I certainly believe and I certainly agree with the fact that it’s like things don’t hit and go deep the way they did when I didn’t have a device in my hand to distract me. That was a lot of d’s. That was very rick Warren of me.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Mingo Palacios:

But you know what I’m saying?

Jay Johnson:

That’s the balance that we all need. If you go into any restaurant and you just look around and you’ll see people just looking at their phone. A dad with his kids or a husband and wife or they’re out on a date and they’re sitting there looking at their phones not talking.

Mingo Palacios:

Right.

Jay Johnson:

And so absolutely, I don’t think that the phone is of the devil.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Jay Johnson:

But you’ve got to have that balance.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah, well as leaders.

Jay Johnson:

It’s an extremely useful tool in ministry. You can do so many things. You can communicate in so many different ways and I carry it because it’s got God’s word on it and I want to always have God’s word on me.

Mingo Palacios:

And I’m not here to boohoo any particular thing because this podcast is more about what we should be aiming towards. I don’t want to shame the darkness. I want to light up forest fire. Well that’s not fair here where we’re at.

Jay Johnson:

Yeah, you should never light a forest fire.

Mingo Palacios:

Too soon! Too soon!

Erick Thoennes:

Smokey’s going to come through the door!

Mingo Palacios:

I want to light a candle, a very intense one. A Roman candle, if I will. I don’t want to just nay say the darkness. I want to bring compelling reason to the light and as leaders in each of our respective camps and for those that are listening, even with the last two minutes of this episode, I think it’s just important to understand that there are a lot of things that are fighting for you to live a significant life. And it could be on your person. It could be the people that you choose to surround yourself with, like Erick, like you had said. There’s more fighting against you to live a life of significance that God has written on the pages of your life than that are trained to rob you of that. And no, I don’t think any APP developer would say, “I’m trying to cheapen life in hopes that all humanity would become dull and non expressive by the end of their time with my invention.” But I do think that there is a responsibility for us to emulate that which Jesus said, which was to come and give life into show and live it in abundance. I do believe that we have to emulate and to show and to display that to our human capacity. And so it was funny, Erick, you said about recreation and the ability to just appreciate a bumblebee over an APP, to not be like all that is around us. To actually be the rebel fish, running in the opposite direction for whatever that is. It sounds so cliché but in a season where FOMO is rampant, like where people just want to know what everybody is doing to stand distinct amongst the masses may be your greatest opportunity to shine bright.

Erick Thoennes:

Yeah. Two expressions are coming to mind. One, I hear John Piper say, “We need more cardiac Christians and less adrenaline Christians.”

Mingo Palacios:

Hey. Who said that?

Erick Thoennes:

John Piper.

Mingo Palacios:

Come on pipes.

Erick Thoennes:

So, our hearts are thumping along so we don’t live off of adrenaline, we live off a strong heart that’s thumping around. I think it’s important to realize that the world and a shallow Christian culture will reward adrenaline driven, charisma driven ministries. And so we may need to be willing to sacrifice short term, so called success for long term faithfulness.

Mingo Palacios:

Yes. That’s great.

Erick Thoennes:

And the last thing is something one of my heroes, Jim Elliot said when he was in college, he said, “Wherever you are, be all there.” And that’s a way of embracing our finitude that I’m here right now with this individual or do with these friends, on this cancer ward, at this wonderful graduation, whatever it is, that’s where I am. And that’s the only place I’m able to be as a finite creature and so let me seek God’s presence in that and seek to be used by Him so that wherever I am, I’m all there and not trying to be somewhere else with either technology or in my mind but I’m a settled soul so that I can truly be wherever God has me.

Mingo Palacios:

On that note, Erick, thank you so much for lending us your pastoral thoughts on the topic.

Erick Thoennes:

You’re welcome.

Mingo Palacios:

For our listeners. If somebody wants to get more information, Erick, on let’s say other thoughts or things that you bring to the table. Can they connect with you? Is there a-

Erick Thoennes:

Nope.

[crosstalk]

[laughing]

Jay Johnson:

He is where he is.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah. You’re right. That’s so naive of me?

Erick Thoennes:

Just you can go to Biola University’s website. There are a lot of things you can connect to through that or our church Grace Evangelical Free Church of La Mirada.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s great. Erick, thank you so much for your time. Jay, thank you for hosting all of us.

Jay Johnson:

It’s our pleasure.

Mingo Palacios:

Certainly Chuck and I are better pastors for being in the room for the spaces that you’ve created. So I really appreciate that. For our listeners, I know you’re encouraged, there’s no way you weren’t. So I would encourage you, tag somebody who would benefit from hearing this conversation or do us a great favor of sharing it. We appreciate your time. I know that that more than anything else is something you can’t get back. So the fact that you listened with us and you subscribe and you take note, it’s of value to me. So thank you so much for listening. We’ll talk to you guys soon.

Mingo Palacios:

We hope today’s insights left you feeling inspired and propelled towards your greatest potential. Thanks again for joining us for another episode of the PD Podcast. Until next time.